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Post by Theropod on Jan 3, 2014 11:49:16 GMT
If anything 11 metre baryonyx is really freaking liberal, its adult size is all speculation not fact. Also I edited your post theropod to DINO 2560 because thats the correct allosaurus specimen. DINO 2560 is called UUVP 6000 sometimes just so you know |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 3, 2014 16:02:49 GMT
Correction: The immature specimen is around 9.5+ metres in length. I have also heard no evidence of it being a sub-adult, all we know is that it is in an immature state. 11 metres is entirely possible, you are using the incorrect sizes for the immature Baryonyx specimen. Other theropods such as Tyrannosaurus and Allosaurus have specimens incredibly varied in size, so you are being too conservative by instantly assuming that 11 metres is 'very rare'. (Unnecessary correction, when I said 9 metres it was basically meant to be around 9 metres) I don't strongly support 11 metres that much now, the specimen does not show signs of extremely young age. It was rather a sub-adult than a juvenile, much closer to adulthood. Other theropods such as Tyrannosaurus and Allosaurus have specimens incredibly varied in size, so you are being too conservative by instantly assuming that 11 metres is 'very rare'. But then why do you use FMNH PR 2081's size estimates by Hartman to determine the size of T. rex? Because you are basing it on the largest specimen known. I would advise stop fabricating estimates for Baryonyx mindlessly, you don't even have a base for them since there is no information on any spinosaurid's growth rate at the moment. The immature Baryonyx specimen could be 60% or 90% grown for all we know, stop assuming that it is a sub-adult. You were fabricating estimates such as 10 metres on carnivora. 10 metre Baryonyx could still be immature for all we know. |
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Post by Theropod on Jan 3, 2014 16:20:39 GMT
(Unnecessary correction, when I said 9 metres it was basically meant to be around 9 metres) I don't strongly support 11 metres that much now, the specimen does not show signs of extremely young age. It was rather a sub-adult than a juvenile, much closer to adulthood. But then why do you use FMNH PR 2081's size estimates by Hartman to determine the size of T. rex? Because you are basing it on the largest specimen known. I would advise stop fabricating estimates for Baryonyx mindlessly, you don't even have a base for them since there is no information on any spinosaurid's growth rate at the moment. The immature Baryonyx specimen could be 60% or 90% grown for all we know, stop assuming that it is a sub-adult. You were fabricating estimates such as 10 metres on carnivora. 10 metre Baryonyx could still be immature for all we know. I was not fabricating them, in fact I said I didn't consider them anyway. Also according to Spinodontosaurus on Carnivora the ~9.5 metre specimen does not show any signs of extremely young age, it's just immature. It was not a juvenile though, but more likely to be a sub-adult. You are also assuming it is a juvenile by the looks of it, except that a lot of people use that because it was initially stated. The ~9.5 metre specimen doesn't show signs of a very young age though so it is probably more like subadult. Using that I would say 11 metres at adulthood is a bit oversized. 10 metres is more likely but as I said earlier on Carnivora I am not considering it as well as any adulthood size estimate from now on until I find more about that. |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 3, 2014 16:43:26 GMT
The immature Baryonyx specimen could be 60% or 90% grown for all we know, stop assuming that it is a sub-adult. You were fabricating estimates such as 10 metres on carnivora. 10 metre Baryonyx could still be immature for all we know. I was not fabricating them, in fact I said I didn't consider them anyway. Also according to Spinodontosaurus on Carnivora the ~9.5 metre specimen does not show any signs of extremely young age, it's just immature. It was not a juvenile though, but more likely to be a sub-adult. You are also assuming it is a juvenile by the looks of it, except that a lot of people use that because it was initially stated. The ~9.5 metre specimen doesn't show signs of a very young age though so it is probably more like subadult. Using that I would say 11 metres at adulthood is a bit oversized. 10 metres is more likely but as I said earlier on Carnivora I am not considering it as well as any adulthood size estimate from now on until I find more about that. 11 metres isn't oversized. As I said many other theropods have very varied adult sizes so the possibilities need to be kept open. Also the immature Baryonyx specimen was originally considered to be a large juvenile, which is not far away from a sub-adult. I still consider the Baryonyx specimen as immature, not specifically a juvenile or sub adult. 10 metres is probably more likely, but 11 metres is possible. 12 metres is pushing it though. |
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Post by Theropod on Jan 3, 2014 16:50:00 GMT
I was not fabricating them, in fact I said I didn't consider them anyway. Also according to Spinodontosaurus on Carnivora the ~9.5 metre specimen does not show any signs of extremely young age, it's just immature. It was not a juvenile though, but more likely to be a sub-adult. You are also assuming it is a juvenile by the looks of it, except that a lot of people use that because it was initially stated. The ~9.5 metre specimen doesn't show signs of a very young age though so it is probably more like subadult. Using that I would say 11 metres at adulthood is a bit oversized. 10 metres is more likely but as I said earlier on Carnivora I am not considering it as well as any adulthood size estimate from now on until I find more about that. 11 metres isn't oversized. As I said many other theropods have very varied adult sizes so the possibilities need to be kept open. Also the immature Baryonyx specimen was originally considered to be a large juvenile, which is not far away from a sub-adult. I still consider the Baryonyx specimen as immature, not specifically a juvenile or sub adult. 10 metres is probably more likely, but 11 metres is possible. 12 metres is pushing it though. I am confident that 3 tons for a 10 metre Baryonyx is even pushing it a little. Baryonyx is not that bulky, so it would be more like 2.5 tons at 10 metres or maybe a little more. The 11 metre Baryonyx is only one metre longer but much larger, about 1.6 times larger. If FMNH PR 2081's is used as the larger estimate in a range the lowest estimate in that range is 5.2 tons if you use a size difference of 1.6. 1.6 is too much of a size difference for one specie. I would rather consider 10 metres than 11 metres due to the reasons stated in this post, but I don't consider any of them really. And yeah 12 metres is pushing it too much since it would be about nearly/over twice the immature specimen's size. |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 3, 2014 16:51:14 GMT
Also another thing:
The immature 8'metre long 2 ton Irritator likely had a bite of around 400 kg. The immature 9.5 metre long 2.6 ton Baryonyx was 30% larger than Irritator. When scaled up, the immature specimen of Baryonyx has a bite force of 520 kg. Since Baryonyx had a stronger skull than Irritator (Baryonichines generally had more powerful bite forces than Spinosaurines when scaled up), the immature specimen of Baryonyx should have a bite force of around 550 kg. This is slightly stronger than Allosaurus' 500kg bite force.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 3, 2014 16:55:50 GMT
11 metres isn't oversized. As I said many other theropods have very varied adult sizes so the possibilities need to be kept open. Also the immature Baryonyx specimen was originally considered to be a large juvenile, which is not far away from a sub-adult. I still consider the Baryonyx specimen as immature, not specifically a juvenile or sub adult. 10 metres is probably more likely, but 11 metres is possible. 12 metres is pushing it though. I am confident that 3 tons for a 10 metre Baryonyx is even pushing it a little. Baryonyx is not that bulky, so it would be more like 2.5 tons at 10 metres or maybe a little more. The 11 metre Baryonyx is only one metre longer but much larger, about 1.6 times larger. If FMNH PR 2081's is used as the larger estimate in a range the lowest estimate in that range is 5.2 tons if you use a size difference of 1.6. 1.6 is too much of a size difference for one specie. I would rather consider 10 metres than 11 metres due to the reasons stated in this post, but I don't consider any of them really. And yeah 12 metres is pushing it too much since it would be about nearly/over twice the immature specimen's size. 3 tons is much more likely for a 10 metre Baryonyx. 2.6 tons is the weight estimate for the 9.5 metre long immature Baryonyx. Baryonyx wasn't that bulky but it was still around the average for a theropod. I wouldn't say that an 11 metre Baryonyx was 1.6 times larger, more like 4 tons. I am not really considering any of these size estimates because we do not know the adult size of Baryonyx. Allosaurus is not that bulky, but it is still around 3 tons at 10 metres. Why would Baryonyx be an exception? |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 3, 2014 17:07:46 GMT
How would a 10 metre Baryonyx be slightly lighter than the 9.5 metre long 2.6 ton immature Baryonyx specimen? It makes absolutely zero sense.
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Post by Allosaurus Rex on Jan 3, 2014 17:12:31 GMT
Also another thing: The immature 8'metre long 2 ton Irritator likely had a bite of around 400 kg. The immature 9.5 metre long 2.6 ton Baryonyx was 30% larger than Irritator. When scaled up, the immature specimen of Baryonyx has a bite force of 520 kg. Since Baryonyx had a stronger skull than Irritator (Baryonichines generally had more powerful bite forces than Spinosaurines when scaled up), the immature specimen of Baryonyx should have a bite force of around 550 kg. This is slightly stronger than Allosaurus' 500kg bite force. even if allosaurus didn't have a stronger bite, it still has the razor sharp flesh-rending teeth that baryonyx doesn't have. |
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Post by Theropod on Jan 3, 2014 17:13:33 GMT
I am confident that 3 tons for a 10 metre Baryonyx is even pushing it a little. Baryonyx is not that bulky, so it would be more like 2.5 tons at 10 metres or maybe a little more. The 11 metre Baryonyx is only one metre longer but much larger, about 1.6 times larger. If FMNH PR 2081's is used as the larger estimate in a range the lowest estimate in that range is 5.2 tons if you use a size difference of 1.6. 1.6 is too much of a size difference for one specie. I would rather consider 10 metres than 11 metres due to the reasons stated in this post, but I don't consider any of them really. And yeah 12 metres is pushing it too much since it would be about nearly/over twice the immature specimen's size. 3 tons is much more likely for a 10 metre Baryonyx. 2.6 tons is the weight estimate for the 9.5 metre long immature Baryonyx. Baryonyx wasn't that bulky but it was still around the average for a theropod. I wouldn't say that an 11 metre Baryonyx was 1.6 times larger, more like 4 tons. I am not really considering any of these size estimates because we do not know the adult size of Baryonyx. Allosaurus is not that bulky, but it is still around 3 tons at 10 metres. Why would Baryonyx be an exception? You did use the 4.5 ton 11 metre Baryonyx figure earlier though, but even 4 tons would be a little oversized for Baryonyx since it's still 1.53 times larger than the possibly nearly-adult Baryonyx specimen. |
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Post by Theropod on Jan 3, 2014 17:14:49 GMT
How would a 10 metre Baryonyx be slightly lighter than the 9.5 metre long 2.6 ton immature Baryonyx specimen? It makes absolutely zero sense. According to that the 10 metre Baryonyx is barely any larger, in fact it would hardly even reach 3 tons. |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 3, 2014 17:16:54 GMT
3 tons is much more likely for a 10 metre Baryonyx. 2.6 tons is the weight estimate for the 9.5 metre long immature Baryonyx. Baryonyx wasn't that bulky but it was still around the average for a theropod. I wouldn't say that an 11 metre Baryonyx was 1.6 times larger, more like 4 tons. I am not really considering any of these size estimates because we do not know the adult size of Baryonyx. Allosaurus is not that bulky, but it is still around 3 tons at 10 metres. Why would Baryonyx be an exception? You did use the 4.5 ton 11 metre Baryonyx figure earlier though, but even 4 tons would be a little oversized for Baryonyx since it's still 1.53 times larger than the possibly nearly-adult Baryonyx specimen. But the point is that you said that a 10 metre Baryonyx would be 2.5 tons, which is an underestimate. The 9.5 metre long immature (not necessarily nearly-adult) specimen of Baryonyx was 2.6 tons. 10 metre Baryonyx would be more like 3 tons (like most theropods at that size). Also the largest Allosaurus specimen found (Epanterias) is over twice the size of the immature specimen Big Al. 4 tons still seems possible for an 11 metre Baryonyx. You also used the 4.5 ton estimate earlier. I think we should stop debating the weight estimate of adult Baryonyx when we don't even have an adult specimen. I assume that it would be similar to most theropods of similar size (eg. 10 metres and 3 tons, 11 metres and 4 tons) |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 3, 2014 17:21:27 GMT
How would a 10 metre Baryonyx be slightly lighter than the 9.5 metre long 2.6 ton immature Baryonyx specimen? It makes absolutely zero sense. According to that the 10 metre Baryonyx is barely any larger, in fact it would hardly even reach 3 tons. It most likely would. The immature 9.5 metre long 2.6 ton Baryonyx would be more gracile than a 10 metre long Baryonyx (it would be further into maturity). |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 3, 2014 17:45:06 GMT
Also another thing: The immature 8'metre long 2 ton Irritator likely had a bite of around 400 kg. The immature 9.5 metre long 2.6 ton Baryonyx was 30% larger than Irritator. When scaled up, the immature specimen of Baryonyx has a bite force of 520 kg. Since Baryonyx had a stronger skull than Irritator (Baryonichines generally had more powerful bite forces than Spinosaurines when scaled up), the immature specimen of Baryonyx should have a bite force of around 550 kg. This is slightly stronger than Allosaurus' 500kg bite force. even if allosaurus didn't have a stronger bite, it still has the razor sharp flesh-rending teeth that baryonyx doesn't have. Baryonyx also had pretty sharp teeth, in fact its teeth had many serrations. |
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Post by Theropod on Jan 3, 2014 19:04:19 GMT
According to that the 10 metre Baryonyx is barely any larger, in fact it would hardly even reach 3 tons. It most likely would. The immature 9.5 metre long 2.6 ton Baryonyx would be more gracile than a 10 metre long Baryonyx (it would be further into maturity). But by half a metre? Do you really think it would weigh nearly half a ton more by half a metre+a slightly more robust build? Also please send me the link for the 2.6 ton estimate. Also when using the "most theropods" thing, if you are using a paper which I also have then that's for the average theropod. I am not sure if Baryonyx is either at that average or under it but is probably around that, but since there is no evidence of how much bulkier Baryonyx would be at adulthood it also strenghtens the fact that you have a slight bias towards Baryonyx since you have tries strenghtening it. Epanterias has a chance of being its own genus as well due to its temporal range. I agree on that since we're not getting a logical conclusion so soon, we don't have a base for it. |
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