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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Nov 7, 2013 16:49:40 GMT
Spinosaurus had a MUSCLE RIDGE, not a sail. Carcharodontosaurus had a weaker bite force than Spinosaurus at their common lengths. Spinosaurus would win 70/30 of the time, because the only advantages Carcharodontosaurus had were agility and a larger skull. Well, like I said, if it was a muscle ridge/bisonback, it would be 50/50 or 60/40 in favor of Spinosaurus. I just didn't clarify it enough. The Spinosaurus and Carcharodontosaurus have very similar bite forces, but if Spinosaurus had a sail back, it would be hard to defend itself unless it could get the first bite or claw the opponent's face. Like you said, a Muscle-Ridged/Bison-Backed Spinoaurus would have better chances. Spinosaurus had a stronger bite force than Carcharodontosaurus, because Spinosaurus teeth were more robust and designed to gripping onto and impaling prey. The muscle ridge theory for Spinosaurus is much more likely. I believe that Spinosaurus would win 70% of the time because of its massive size and strength advantage. |
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Post by thesporerex on Nov 7, 2013 21:01:24 GMT
Spinosaurus would win against all know theropods, ALL OF THEM. Not a single land carnivore comes close.
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Post by Theropod on Nov 8, 2013 17:36:49 GMT
Spinosaurus would win against all know theropods, ALL OF THEM. Not a single land carnivore comes close. Yeah because of its size advantage, no other theropod comes close to its size. At parity, it's the other way around, but this is not a parity. |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Nov 8, 2013 20:03:59 GMT
Spinosaurus would win against all know theropods, ALL OF THEM. Not a single land carnivore comes close. Yeah because of its size advantage, no other theropod comes close to its size. At parity, it's the other way around, but this is not a parity. Actually, at parity, the chances are much more even with Spinosaurus and other theropods. However, at its real size, Spinosaurus would destroy all other theropods. |
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Post by Theropod on Nov 8, 2013 20:56:32 GMT
Yeah because of its size advantage, no other theropod comes close to its size. At parity, it's the other way around, but this is not a parity. Actually, at parity, the chances are much more even with Spinosaurus and other theropods. However, at its real size, Spinosaurus would destroy all other theropods. Spinosaurus would mostly lose in nearly every parity, its bite is relatively weak for its size. Its weight is about 4.3 times superior to its biteforce, even a human bites harder than a Spinosaurus at parity. Jaws are way more effective than arms in those cases, most if not all predators rely mostly on jaws. Most theropods would destroy Spinosaurus in a parity. |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Nov 8, 2013 21:16:01 GMT
Actually, at parity, the chances are much more even with Spinosaurus and other theropods. However, at its real size, Spinosaurus would destroy all other theropods. Spinosaurus would mostly lose in nearly every parity, its bite is relatively weak for its size. Its weight is about 4.3 times superior to its biteforce, even a human bites harder than a Spinosaurus at parity. Jaws are way more effective than arms in those cases, most if not all predators rely mostly on jaws. Most theropods would destroy Spinosaurus in a parity. Since when did Spinosaurus have a weak bite force for its size? Spinosaurids actually had very robust conical teeth, quite similar to those of a saber tooth tiger. Ask RaptorX for the evidence. No theropod would be able to 'destroy' Spinosaurus at parity. Spinosaurids were some of the most robust carnivores, much more so than Carcharodontosaurids, Allosaurids, and Megalosaurids. |
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Post by Theropod on Nov 8, 2013 21:36:31 GMT
Spinosaurus would mostly lose in nearly every parity, its bite is relatively weak for its size. Its weight is about 4.3 times superior to its biteforce, even a human bites harder than a Spinosaurus at parity. Jaws are way more effective than arms in those cases, most if not all predators rely mostly on jaws. Most theropods would destroy Spinosaurus in a parity. Since when did Spinosaurus have a weak bite force for its size? Spinosaurids actually had very robust conical teeth, quite similar to those of a saber tooth tiger. Ask RaptorX for the evidence. No theropod would be able to 'destroy' Spinosaurus at parity. Spinosaurids were some of the most robust carnivores, much more so than Carcharodontosaurids, Allosaurids, and Megalosaurids.The numbers never lie; 13 / 3=4.3. That makes Spinosaurus' weight ~4.3 times superior to its biteforce, much higher than that of any other theropod. The higher this result is, the weaker your biteforce is. Sue weighed ~8.4t and had a biteforce of ~6t. So 8.4 / 6=1.4. This is a lower number, which means Sue's biteforce was much stronger, because her weight is not much superior to her biteforce. Even if Carcharodontosaurus had a biteforce of 2.2 tonnes, you still get 7 / 2.5=2.8. Allosaurus weighed ~2 tonnes and had a biteforce of ~500kg, so 2 / 0.5=4. That is slightly stronger than Spinosaurus' bite at parity. About bulk, not all spinosaurids are bulky. Irritator is really gracile, please do not use bulk as the only aspect that actually matters. Biteforce is one of the best weapons a predator would want. At parity, most theropods win by at least 60/40 against Spinosaurus. Spinosaurids have relatively weak biteforce compared to weight, which makes their biteforce weaker than other animals at parity. Spinosaurus also probably had the strongest Spinosaurid biteforce, and it's relatively weak since it was over 10 tonnes. |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Nov 8, 2013 22:13:25 GMT
Since when did Spinosaurus have a weak bite force for its size? Spinosaurids actually had very robust conical teeth, quite similar to those of a saber tooth tiger. Ask RaptorX for the evidence. No theropod would be able to 'destroy' Spinosaurus at parity. Spinosaurids were some of the most robust carnivores, much more so than Carcharodontosaurids, Allosaurids, and Megalosaurids.The numbers never lie; 13 / 3=4.3. That makes Spinosaurus' weight ~4.3 times superior to its biteforce, much higher than that of any other theropod. The higher this result is, the weaker your biteforce is. Sue weighed ~8.4t and had a biteforce of ~6t. So 8.4 / 6=1.4. This is a lower number, which means Sue's biteforce was much stronger, because her weight is not much superior to her biteforce. Even if Carcharodontosaurus had a biteforce of 2.2 tonnes, you still get 7 / 2.5=2.8. Allosaurus weighed ~2 tonnes and had a biteforce of ~500kg, so 2 / 0.5=4. That is slightly stronger than Spinosaurus' bite at parity. About bulk, not all spinosaurids are bulky. Irritator is really gracile, please do not use bulk as the only aspect that actually matters. Biteforce is one of the best weapons a predator would want. At parity, most theropods win by at least 60/40 against Spinosaurus. Spinosaurids have relatively weak biteforce compared to weight, which makes their biteforce weaker than other animals at parity. Spinosaurus also probably had the strongest Spinosaurid biteforce, and it's relatively weak since it was over 10 tonnes. I was using different estimates, so your calculations would be different from mine. Spinosaurus probably had a bite force at more like 4 tons, so Spinosaurus' weight was only 3.5 times superior than its bite force. I agree with you on Carcharodontosaurus' bite force being around 2.5 tons, but there really wouldn't be much of a difference between Spinosaurus' bite force and Carcharodontosaurus' bite force at parity. Judging by my estimates, Allosaurus would have a weaker bite force than Spinosaurus at parity. The majority of Spinosaurids were bulky, especially the Baryonichines (Baryonyx, Spinosaurus). I'm not saying bulk is the only aspect that matters, but that it is still a crucial advantage when both dinosaurs are at parity. I personally believe that at parity, Spinosaurus would lose around 45% of the time against the majority of theropods because its arms were slung too low to be much use when fighting an animal its own height. |
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Post by Lmpkio on Nov 8, 2013 23:39:38 GMT
As long as any of you guys keep away from Monster Resurrected, keep on arguing you guys.
Here's the movie in case you want to know why (To those that don't):
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Post by nanolancensis on Nov 9, 2013 0:39:19 GMT
As long as any of you guys keep away from Monster Resurrected, keep on arguing you guys. Here's the movie in case you want to know why (To those that don't): Just for the record, Monsters Ressurected is pretty much outlawed in the paleontologist community for it's godmod focuses, unreasonable inaccuracy, and some of the most ridiculously short fight scenes ever. So, for the record, MR means nothing, unless you are a paleontologist who belives this. |
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Post by Lmpkio on Nov 9, 2013 0:47:45 GMT
As long as any of you guys keep away from Monster Resurrected, keep on arguing you guys. Here's the movie in case you want to know why (To those that don't): Just for the record, Monsters Ressurected is pretty much outlawed in the paleontologist community for it's godmod focuses, unreasonable inaccuracy, and some of the most ridiculously short fight scenes ever. So, for the record, MR means nothing, unless you are a paleontologist who belives this. Yeah. I mean, it had sorta good CGI, but yeah it means nothing. NOTHING!!!! |
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Post by raptorx863 on Nov 9, 2013 1:21:04 GMT
I never said that, and moreover they're very different structures. Smilodon has teeth which are serrated and flattened like a knife, while the longest teeth in Spinosaurus' jaw lacked serrations and were conical, very different. What I did say, however, was that their length and piercing abilities may be the result of a similar puncture method of killing prey, but while Smilodon's bite was precise and aimed for tearing out the windpipe, Spino's bite was like a giant spike stabbing onto prey and holding on for grip. Megalosaurids were actually comparable to spinosaurids in their robust build, as they both have wide pelvic bones and ribcages making them fairly chunky. Still, for their size they weren't as robust as tyrannosaurids and some abeliosaurids, which is why at similar sizes I'd think that a Spinosaurus vs. T.rex dual would actually be in the Rex's favor. You're right about all that, except for two things: - Irritator is a juvenile, so we would expect it to be fairly gracile at its age. An adult may have been more robust. Moreover, it's not that gracile when comparing it to other juvenile theropods (even juvenile Rex).
- I'd say that spinosaurinae have a weak bite force for their size, but according to Emily Rayfield's research baryonychinae have bite forces comparable to other theropods in their size range.
I did my own estimates of Spinosaurus' bite and used a type 3 lever equation to calculate the forces produced on the largest tooth in the upper jaw of Spinosaurus, and used Allosaurus, Baryonyx, and Tyrannosaurus (which have all had their bite forces predicted before) check my work. I ended up with Spino having a bite force of 9029 N, which is about a ton of force and nowhere near 4 tons. I don't think that either baryonychinae or spinosaurinae were more robust from my own research, though seeing as spinosaurinae were larger on average I'd expect them to have been proportionately more robust. |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Nov 9, 2013 7:22:13 GMT
I never said that, and moreover they're very different structures. Smilodon has teeth which are serrated and flattened like a knife, while the longest teeth in Spinosaurus' jaw lacked serrations and were conical, very different. What I did say, however, was that their length and piercing abilities may be the result of a similar puncture method of killing prey, but while Smilodon's bite was precise and aimed for tearing out the windpipe, Spino's bite was like a giant spike stabbing onto prey and holding on for grip. Megalosaurids were actually comparable to spinosaurids in their robust build, as they both have wide pelvic bones and ribcages making them fairly chunky. Still, for their size they weren't as robust as tyrannosaurids and some abeliosaurids, which is why at similar sizes I'd think that a Spinosaurus vs. T.rex dual would actually be in the Rex's favor. You're right about all that, except for two things: - Irritator is a juvenile, so we would expect it to be fairly gracile at its age. An adult may have been more robust. Moreover, it's not that gracile when comparing it to other juvenile theropods (even juvenile Rex).
- I'd say that spinosaurinae have a weak bite force for their size, but according to Emily Rayfield's research baryonychinae have bite forces comparable to other theropods in their size range.
I did my own estimates of Spinosaurus' bite and used a type 3 lever equation to calculate the forces produced on the largest tooth in the upper jaw of Spinosaurus, and used Allosaurus, Baryonyx, and Tyrannosaurus (which have all had their bite forces predicted before) check my work. I ended up with Spino having a bite force of 9029 N, which is about a ton of force and nowhere near 4 tons. I don't think that either baryonychinae or spinosaurinae were more robust from my own research, though seeing as spinosaurinae were larger on average I'd expect them to have been proportionately more robust. I don't see how Spinosaurine were larger on average, because the majority of the largest Spinosaurs were Baryonichines (Spinosaurus, Baryonyx and Suchomimus). This means that Baryonichines were probably proportionally more robust. |
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Nov 9, 2013 7:27:10 GMT
I never said that, and moreover they're very different structures. Smilodon has teeth which are serrated and flattened like a knife, while the longest teeth in Spinosaurus' jaw lacked serrations and were conical, very different. What I did say, however, was that their length and piercing abilities may be the result of a similar puncture method of killing prey, but while Smilodon's bite was precise and aimed for tearing out the windpipe, Spino's bite was like a giant spike stabbing onto prey and holding on for grip. Megalosaurids were actually comparable to spinosaurids in their robust build, as they both have wide pelvic bones and ribcages making them fairly chunky. Still, for their size they weren't as robust as tyrannosaurids and some abeliosaurids, which is why at similar sizes I'd think that a Spinosaurus vs. T.rex dual would actually be in the Rex's favor. You're right about all that, except for two things: - Irritator is a juvenile, so we would expect it to be fairly gracile at its age. An adult may have been more robust. Moreover, it's not that gracile when comparing it to other juvenile theropods (even juvenile Rex).
- I'd say that spinosaurinae have a weak bite force for their size, but according to Emily Rayfield's research baryonychinae have bite forces comparable to other theropods in their size range.
I did my own estimates of Spinosaurus' bite and used a type 3 lever equation to calculate the forces produced on the largest tooth in the upper jaw of Spinosaurus, and used Allosaurus, Baryonyx, and Tyrannosaurus (which have all had their bite forces predicted before) check my work. I ended up with Spino having a bite force of 9029 N, which is about a ton of force and nowhere near 4 tons. I don't think that either baryonychinae or spinosaurinae were more robust from my own research, though seeing as spinosaurinae were larger on average I'd expect them to have been proportionately more robust. I know that the Abelisaurids and Tyrannosaurids were more robust than Spinosaurids, but the Spinosaurids were still more robust than the Carcharodontosaurids and Allosaurids. |
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Post by raptorx863 on Nov 9, 2013 7:56:59 GMT
Also, I don't see how Spinosaurine were larger on average, because the majority of the largest Spinosaurs were Baryonichines (Spinosaurus, Baryonyx and Suchomimus). This means that Baryonichines were probably proportionally more robust. I didn't use any of those three other theropods as basis for Spinosaurus. I used the a type 3 lever mathematical equation to determine the bite force. This was based on things such as Spino's skull size, the distance that the rear of the skull was to the tooth I was studying, the distance between the pivot and the jaw muscles, the mass of the jaw muscles, and so on, not related theropods at all. I then used the same method on other theropods, looked at my results for all 4, and compared the results to the numbers published by other scientists to see if the method worked, and it did. Moreover this is a very common method of determining a rough estimate of an extinct animal's bite forces. There was a guy at SVP who used the exact same method to determine the jaw strength of ornithischians and examine what they were eating. :/ Spinosaurus was a spinosaurine (that's where the subfamily's name comes from), and it's the biggest spinosaurid known. Oxalaia is also a spinosaurine, and it comes at a close second according to current estimates. The only small spinosaurine is Irritator, but you have to remember that it's a juvenile individual. Suchomimus is the largest baryonychinae and the next largest spinosaurid after Oxalaia, followed then by Baryonyx which is known from a juvenile specimens. After that, the rest of the spinosauridae is tiny, being at around Irritator size or smaller. If you were to then count up the number of big species (30+ft) per subfamily, it would be 2/3 for spinosaurine and 2/5 for baryonychinae. So yes, the former seems to be larger on average, abet slightly. |
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