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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 18, 2014 21:10:29 GMT
It doesn't have 'much' thinner jaws than other Spinosaurids. I said theropods, not spinosaurids. If you deny it then that's just bias Spinosaurids are theropods *sigh*... I know that most other theropods had more robust skulls than Baryonyx, I never denied that in this discussion.
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Post by Theropod on Jan 18, 2014 21:14:45 GMT
I said theropods, not spinosaurids. If you deny it then that's just bias Spinosaurids are theropods *sigh*... I know that most other theropods had more robust skulls than Baryonyx, I never denied that in this discussion. You did not get my point, I said Baryonyx's jaws were much thinner than most theropods, not spinosaurids.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 18, 2014 21:17:36 GMT
I am also not biased in this discussion. I'm basing my claims on studies made by Emily Rayfield, and RaptorX should have the link to the studies. Emily Rayfield's study basically implies that Baryonichines may have had stronger bite forces than Spinosaurines at parity. I may of misinterpreted what she exactly said, but she does definitely state that Baryonichines had bite forces comparable to that of theropods of similar size. And anyways Giganotosaurus would win against Baryonyx and Spinosaurus at parity so this 'Spinosaurus VS Baryonyx at parity' thing is rather irrelevant to this discussion.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 18, 2014 21:18:21 GMT
Spinosaurids are theropods *sigh*... I know that most other theropods had more robust skulls than Baryonyx, I never denied that in this discussion. You did not get my point, I said Baryonyx's jaws were much thinner than most theropods, not spinosaurids. I know that I just stated that... Although the bite force difference between Baryonyx and other theropods of the same size wouldn't be great, according to Emily Rayfield's studies.
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Post by Theropod on Jan 18, 2014 23:19:04 GMT
When were those studies published? There are many studies out there that are just plain disasters. The thing is, Baryonyx had a very thin and gracile snout, its angular and surangular were pretty small. The dentary and the maxilla were very enlongated, and the skull itself was very gracile. It had an enlongated, slender neck, and its parietal didn't suggest an impressive spinalis capitis. The enlongated skull and the small length from the angular to the parietal suggest a large stress area, which means it applies stress in many areas, thus meaning that it would not apply too much stress on one square inch. Its small teeth, like on any other theropod with this dentition, were built for slight slicing. The membrane between the jugal, quadratojugal and the surangular was quite large, suggesting a bigger gape. We all know a small gape suggests a strong bite, and a large gape suggests a weak bite. I really doubt of Emily Rayfield's studies and her conclusions.
And I don't see why not debate about this; It is not so off-opic, it is, overall, a debate about which of the two dinosaurs were superior in a certain department. Both of these two are foes for Giganotosaurus carolinii in the scenario, and we are deducing which of them would be a tougher opponent.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 18, 2014 23:29:03 GMT
When were those studies published? There are many studies out there that are just plain disasters. The thing is, Baryonyx had a very thin and gracile snout, its angular and surangular were pretty small. The dentary and the mazilla were very enlongated, and the skull itself was very gracile. It had an enlongated, slender neck, and its parietal didn't suggest an impressive spinalis capitis. The enlongated skull and the small length from the angular to the parietal suggest a large stress area, which means it applies stress in many areas, thus meaning that it would not apply too much stress on one square inch. Its small teeth, like on any other theropod with this dentition, were built for slight slicing. The membrane between the jugal, quadratojugal and the surangular was quite large, suggesting a bigger gape. We all know a small gape suggests a strong bite, and a large gape suggests a weak bite. I really doubt of Emily Rayfield's studies and her conclusions. And I don't see why not debate about this; It is not so off-opic, it is, overall, a debate about which of the two dinosaurs were superior in a certain department. Both of these two are foes for Giganotosaurus carolinii in the scenario, and we are deducing which of them would be a tougher opponent. RaptorX uses the studies, so I assume that they are pretty accurate. We also do not have the complete skull of Baryonyx, so neither your's or her's conclusions can be 100% accurate. Spinosaurus also had a gracile skull, same with most Spinosaurids. At parity, Spinosaurus and Baryonyx would be similar opponents for Giganotosaurus imo.
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Post by Theropod on Jan 18, 2014 23:39:27 GMT
When were those studies published? There are many studies out there that are just plain disasters. The thing is, Baryonyx had a very thin and gracile snout, its angular and surangular were pretty small. The dentary and the mazilla were very enlongated, and the skull itself was very gracile. It had an enlongated, slender neck, and its parietal didn't suggest an impressive spinalis capitis. The enlongated skull and the small length from the angular to the parietal suggest a large stress area, which means it applies stress in many areas, thus meaning that it would not apply too much stress on one square inch. Its small teeth, like on any other theropod with this dentition, were built for slight slicing. The membrane between the jugal, quadratojugal and the surangular was quite large, suggesting a bigger gape. We all know a small gape suggests a strong bite, and a large gape suggests a weak bite. I really doubt of Emily Rayfield's studies and her conclusions. And I don't see why not debate about this; It is not so off-opic, it is, overall, a debate about which of the two dinosaurs were superior in a certain department. Both of these two are foes for Giganotosaurus carolinii in the scenario, and we are deducing which of them would be a tougher opponent. RaptorX uses the studies, so I assume that they are pretty accurate. We also do not have the complete skull of Baryonyx, so neither your's or her's conclusions can be 100% accurate. Spinosaurus also had a gracile skull, same with most Spinosaurids. At parity, Spinosaurus and Baryonyx would be similar opponents for Giganotosaurus imo. I will talk to him about that. Still, I have shown a lot of arguments that pretty much put her studies on a very dubious state. We are using what Baryonyx is supposed to be like, most dinosaurs don't have enough remains to get any conclusions about them on any department. Spinosaurus did have a gracile skull, but nowhere near as gracile as that of Baryonyx. Spinosaurus also had a more powerful spinalis capitis, according to what it might've looked like. on Scott Hartman's work. And once again, I would not put them at an equal level of combat effectiveness at parity - They were much more different than people think, and they are in different subfamilies.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 18, 2014 23:55:25 GMT
RaptorX uses the studies, so I assume that they are pretty accurate. We also do not have the complete skull of Baryonyx, so neither your's or her's conclusions can be 100% accurate. Spinosaurus also had a gracile skull, same with most Spinosaurids. At parity, Spinosaurus and Baryonyx would be similar opponents for Giganotosaurus imo. I will talk to him about that. Still, I have shown a lot of arguments that pretty much put her studies on a very dubious state. We are using what Baryonyx is supposed to be like, most dinosaurs don't have enough remains to get any conclusions about them on any department. Spinosaurus did have a gracile skull, but nowhere near as gracile as that of Baryonyx. Spinosaurus also had a more powerful spinalis capitis, according to what it might've looked like. on Scott Hartman's work. And once again, I would not put them at an equal level of combat effectiveness at parity - They were much more different than people think, and they are in different subfamilies. Giganotosaurus and Carcharodontosaurus have larger angular and surangular than Tyrannosaurus, but Tyrannosaurus still has a stronger bite force. This likely applies to other theropods, so Baryonyx could have a stronger bite force than what you think. The 2 ton immature specimen of Irritator had a bite force at around 400 kg, so the 2.6 ton immature specimen of Baryonyx probably had a bite force of around 500 kg. As I have said before, Spinosaurus' skull was not massively more robust than Baryonyx's skull. And the gracile skull of the Baryonyx specimen found is likely associated with its immaturity.
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Post by Allosaurus Rex on Jan 19, 2014 0:08:09 GMT
imo it stops at the t.rex
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Post by Theropod on Jan 19, 2014 0:17:08 GMT
I will talk to him about that. Still, I have shown a lot of arguments that pretty much put her studies on a very dubious state. We are using what Baryonyx is supposed to be like, most dinosaurs don't have enough remains to get any conclusions about them on any department. Spinosaurus did have a gracile skull, but nowhere near as gracile as that of Baryonyx. Spinosaurus also had a more powerful spinalis capitis, according to what it might've looked like. on Scott Hartman's work. And once again, I would not put them at an equal level of combat effectiveness at parity - They were much more different than people think, and they are in different subfamilies. Giganotosaurus and Carcharodontosaurus have larger angular and surangular than Tyrannosaurus, but Tyrannosaurus still has a stronger bite force. This likely applies to other theropods, so Baryonyx could have a stronger bite force than what you think. The 2 ton immature specimen of Irritator had a bite force at around 400 kg, so the 2.6 ton immature specimen of Baryonyx probably had a bite force of around 500 kg. As I have said before, Spinosaurus' skull was not massively more robust than Baryonyx's skull. And the gracile skull of the Baryonyx specimen found is likely associated with its immaturity. This is an excception, and you know why? Because Tyrannosaurus rex has a much more robust skull than those two. Don't even do that analogy, it's terrible. Spinosaurus has a far different skull shape, and its teeth were far more robust than those of Baryonyx. Spinosaurus' stockier jaw also provides he fact that it would apply more stress to one square area than a Baryonyx would at parity.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 19, 2014 0:23:34 GMT
Giganotosaurus and Carcharodontosaurus have larger angular and surangular than Tyrannosaurus, but Tyrannosaurus still has a stronger bite force. This likely applies to other theropods, so Baryonyx could have a stronger bite force than what you think. The 2 ton immature specimen of Irritator had a bite force at around 400 kg, so the 2.6 ton immature specimen of Baryonyx probably had a bite force of around 500 kg. As I have said before, Spinosaurus' skull was not massively more robust than Baryonyx's skull. And the gracile skull of the Baryonyx specimen found is likely associated with its immaturity. This is an excception, and you know why? Because Tyrannosaurus rex has a much more robust skull than those two. Don't even do that analogy, it's terrible. Spinosaurus has a far different skull shape, and its teeth were far more robust than those of Baryonyx. Spinosaurus' stockier jaw also provides he fact that it would apply more stress to one square area than a Baryonyx would at parity. Baryonyx and Spinosaurus do not have a far different skull shape. Spinosaurus' jaw is stockier yes, but not MASSIVELY stockier. And as I have said the gracile skull thing is likely associated with the immaturity of the only Baryonyx specimen found. Many theropods have gracile skulls when not fully grown.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 19, 2014 13:55:27 GMT
If these were real sizes then Giganotosaurus would be stopped at round 1 lol
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Post by Theropod on Jan 19, 2014 13:57:18 GMT
This is an excception, and you know why? Because Tyrannosaurus rex has a much more robust skull than those two. Don't even do that analogy, it's terrible. Spinosaurus has a far different skull shape, and its teeth were far more robust than those of Baryonyx. Spinosaurus' stockier jaw also provides he fact that it would apply more stress to one square area than a Baryonyx would at parity. Baryonyx and Spinosaurus do not have a far different skull shape. Spinosaurus' jaw is stockier yes, but not MASSIVELY stockier. And as I have said the gracile skull thing is likely associated with the immaturity of the only Baryonyx specimen found. Many theropods have gracile skulls when not fully grown.
"Baryonyx and Spinosaurus do not have a far different skull shape". Oh my god Mecha... Yes they do: The quadratougal, lacrimal, occipital, squamosal, parietal and postorbital are totally different. The dentary, angular and surangular are very different in shape. The fact that both have enlongated skulls makes both seem similar, but they are not. The inferior temporal fenestra, mandibular fenestra, antorbital fenestra have their differences. Apart from the skull, the spinalis capitis, trapezius, latissimus dorsi and many other muscles are different by logical skeletal differences. The skull, mandible, cervical vertebrae, illium, femur, fibula, and tibia have their differences, and they are only similar at some points of what I mentioned because the Spinosaurus skeletal had parts restored after Irritator, Suchomimus and Baryonyx, and I still see many differences in skeletal anatomy, thus meaning they were totally different in overall anatomy. They are very different. Now to the skull, the stockier structure gives it less stress areas, meaning one square area will suffer more stress. The larger muscle placement areas for the larger angular and surangular indicate more opening/shutting power. And as I have already said, a large gape is a synonym of a weaker bite, while a stronger bite leads to a smaller gape. The membrane between the jugal, quadratojugal and surangular on Baryonyx is much larger than the one observed on Spinosaurus (considering that from Hartman's reconstructions, which are very accurate), meaning a larger gape. Don't bring the immature specimen up, it's all we have, so we should not mindlessly speculate a stockier Baryonyx skull. We have no information on Baryonychine growth rate what so ever. And last but not least, the teeth. Scott Hartman's skeletals above clearly depict Spinosaurus with bulkier, longer teeth. You are basically defending Baryonyx, saying it would be a tougher opponent than Spinosaurus, when it would not really. Its main weapon would be its biteforce, which would not be as effective as that of an animal which has good reasons to have a superior biteforce, plus its deadlier teeth.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jan 19, 2014 14:03:59 GMT
Baryonyx and Spinosaurus do not have a far different skull shape. Spinosaurus' jaw is stockier yes, but not MASSIVELY stockier. And as I have said the gracile skull thing is likely associated with the immaturity of the only Baryonyx specimen found. Many theropods have gracile skulls when not fully grown.
"Baryonyx and Spinosaurus do not have a far different skull shape". Oh my god Mecha... Yes they do: The quadratougal, lacrimal, occipital, squamosal, parietal and postorbital are totally different. The dentary, angular and surangular are very different in shape. The fact that both have enlongated skulls makes both seem similar, but they are not. The inferior temporal fenestra, mandibular fenestra, antorbital fenestra have their differences. Apart from the skull, the spinalis capitis, trapezius, latissimus dorsi and many other muscles are different by logical skeletal differences. The skull, mandible, cervical vertebrae, illium, femur, fibula, and tibia have their differences, and they are only similar at some points of what I mentioned because the Spinosaurus skeletal had parts restored after Irritator, Suchomimus and Baryonyx, and I still see many differences in skeletal anatomy, thus meaning they were totally different in overall anatomy. They are very different. Now to the skull, the stockier structure gives it less stress areas, meaning one square area will suffer more stress. The larger muscle placement areas for the larger angular and surangular indicate more opening/shutting power. And as I have already said, a large gape is a synonym of a weaker bite, while a stronger bite leads to a smaller gape. The membrane between the jugal, quadratojugal and surangular on Baryonyx is much larger than the one observed on Spinosaurus (considering that from Hartman's reconstructions, which are very accurate), meaning a larger gape. Don't bring the immature specimen up, it's all we have, so we should not mindlessly speculate a stockier Baryonyx skull. We have no information on Baryonychine growth rate what so ever. And last but not least, the teeth. Scott Hartman's skeletals above clearly depict Spinosaurus with bulkier, longer teeth. You are basically defending Baryonyx, saying it would be a tougher opponent than Spinosaurus, when it would not really. Its main weapon would be its biteforce, which would not be as effective as that of an animal which has good reasons to have a superior biteforce, plus its deadlier teeth. I never said that Baryonyx would be a tougher opponent at parity, I said they would be similar (which you are disproving). And in that case you are also defending Spinosaurus, because I am using Emily Rayfield's studies to 'defend' Baryonyx, while you are using Scott Hartman's skeletals to 'defend' Spinosaurus. Also I cannot see any major differences on the overall skeletal structures of Spinosaurus and Baryonyx apart from their skulls. Finally Baryonyx's bite would still be useful, it wouldn't be completely useless. Baryonyx may of even used a different method of biting, it did have large stress areas on its skull after all.
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Post by Theropod on Jan 19, 2014 16:18:50 GMT
I never said that Baryonyx would be a tougher opponent at parity, I said they would be similar (which you are disproving). And in that case you are also defending Spinosaurus, because I am using Emily Rayfield's studies to 'defend' Baryonyx, while you are using Scott Hartman's skeletals to 'defend' Spinosaurus. Also I cannot see any major differences on the overall skeletal structures of Spinosaurus and Baryonyx apart from their skulls. Finally Baryonyx's bite would still be useful, it wouldn't be completely useless. Baryonyx may of even used a different method of biting, it did have large stress areas on its skull after all. How so? Baryonyx would actually have a stronger bite force than Spinosaurus at parity, so I don't see how it is 'easier'. You are denying it that Baryonyx would be easier to kill than Spinosaurus at parity, which is a fact and I have already explained. Emily Rayfield's study sounds pretty flawled, I have already debunked it with the other post, and I would suggest reading it again. And I would suggest looking at them very closely and carefully instead of doing quick looks over the skeletal. Stop ignoring my point, I am not saying Baryonyx would not have a combat-effective bite, but it is not as effective as Spinosaurus' bite. Spinosaurus had superior combat dentition and a stronger biteforce which I have already proven. I am "defending" Spinosaurus with evidence, instead of defending Baryonyx with a study that has been debunked and not shown at any point. Scott Hartman's skeletals are very accurate, and I did show my sources which are those skeletals, instead of backing an argument up with no sources. I am sure you have a source, but you did not show it, and it seems flawled. Spinosaurus had a better dentition for the combat department, instead of much smaller teeth like those of Baryonyx, which indicated a more proper slicing dentition rather than crushing.
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