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Post by Allosaurus Rex on May 4, 2014 2:38:56 GMT
Lythronax argestes
Carnotaurus sastrei
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on May 4, 2014 7:37:58 GMT
Lythronax wins due to superior weaponry
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Post by Theropod on May 4, 2014 14:38:44 GMT
I would disagree with it being extremely more well-armed, and I think the abelisaurid is greatly underrated. It's a fact that it had a rather weak biteforce for its size, but it would definitely have a force of at least 600kgf, which is not that bad, actually stronger than Spotted Hyenas by roughly ~24.5%, although I actually need to find a more reliable bite force figure on Crocuta crocuta. By comparison, Spotted Hyenas can crush really thick bones; Source: "Of arcs and vaults: the biomechanics of bone-cracking in spotted hyenas (Crocuta crocuta)" p. 254 J. B. Tanner et. al."Assuming a ~600kgf biteforce for Carnotaurus sastrei, which might as well be very low, I'm pretty sure that it would also have a pretty decent biteforce as well, thus why the abelisaurid is actually very underestimated for a creature its size.
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Post by Allosaurus Rex on May 4, 2014 15:30:35 GMT
lythronax still had an undoubtedly more formidable bite, also given it's more robust build, lythronax would win this.
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Post by Theropod on May 4, 2014 16:00:22 GMT
That's the point, both had effective bites, so bringing biting effectiveness up is unnecessary when both animals' bites have the potential to crack a thick femur open. Plus, the abelisaurid, although quite slender, had a fairly wide torso.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on May 4, 2014 21:32:26 GMT
I would disagree with it being extremely more well-armed, and I think the abelisaurid is greatly underrated. It's a fact that it had a rather weak biteforce for its size, but it would definitely have a force of at least 600kgf, which is not that bad, actually stronger than Spotted Hyenas by roughly ~24.5%, although I actually need to find a more reliable bite force figure on Crocuta crocuta. By comparison, Spotted Hyenas can crush really thick bones; Source: "Of arcs and vaults: the biomechanics of bone-cracking in spotted hyenas (Crocuta crocuta)" p. 254 J. B. Tanner et. al."Assuming a ~600kgf biteforce for Carnotaurus sastrei, which might as well be very low, I'm pretty sure that it would also have a pretty decent biteforce as well, thus why the abelisaurid is actually very underestimated for a creature its size. Could I ask where a 600kg bite force estimate for Carnotaurus sastrei originated? Carnotaurus would of indeed had a fairly strong bite if ignoring proportions, but I'm not too sure if we should fabricate estimates like that just yet.
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Post by Theropod on May 4, 2014 22:16:00 GMT
I would disagree with it being extremely more well-armed, and I think the abelisaurid is greatly underrated. It's a fact that it had a rather weak biteforce for its size, but it would definitely have a force of at least 600kgf, which is not that bad, actually stronger than Spotted Hyenas by roughly ~24.5%, although I actually need to find a more reliable bite force figure on Crocuta crocuta. By comparison, Spotted Hyenas can crush really thick bones; Source: "Of arcs and vaults: the biomechanics of bone-cracking in spotted hyenas (Crocuta crocuta)" p. 254 J. B. Tanner et. al."Assuming a ~600kgf biteforce for Carnotaurus sastrei, which might as well be very low, I'm pretty sure that it would also have a pretty decent biteforce as well, thus why the abelisaurid is actually very underestimated for a creature its size. Could I ask where a 600kg bite force estimate for Carnotaurus sastrei originated? Carnotaurus would of indeed had a fairly strong bite if ignoring proportions, but I'm not too sure if we should fabricate estimates like that just yet. Where does it state it's more than a mere educated guess? 600kgf sounds reasonable, although still rather low. Carnotaurus sastrei did not have a large jaw adductor, but it definitely had a very powerful biteforce. The guesstimate derives from this: 6,000*(7/12.3)² = ~1,943/3 = ~647.6 I scaled the biteforce of Tyrannosaurus rex down, then divided it by 3 to make sure that even at the weakest, it would still be pretty strong, and I was right; the calculation yielded over 600kgf, stronger than the bite force of Spotted Hyenas, and that was after the number was divided by 3, meaning a much weaker jaw adductor and bite force, which still yielded a bite force superior to that of modern Hyenas. In contrast, Sakamoto estimated the bite force of Baryonyx walkeri with a ~91.5 cm skull at ~3,870 newtons (~394kg), and its jaw adductor was even less volumous, not to mention it had a very slender neck overall in comparison to Carnotaurus sastrei. With Saltwater Crocodiles having bite forces superior to 1,500kg, I wouldn't be surprised to see this abelisaurid biting about as hard.
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Post by jenizion on May 5, 2014 1:25:40 GMT
I vote Carnotaurus.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on May 5, 2014 7:42:18 GMT
Could I ask where a 600kg bite force estimate for Carnotaurus sastrei originated? Carnotaurus would of indeed had a fairly strong bite if ignoring proportions, but I'm not too sure if we should fabricate estimates like that just yet. Where does it state it's more than a mere educated guess? 600kgf sounds reasonable, although still rather low. Carnotaurus sastrei did not have a large jaw adductor, but it definitely had a very powerful biteforce. The guesstimate derives from this: 6,000*(7/12.3)² = ~1,943/3 = ~647.6 I scaled the biteforce of Tyrannosaurus rex down, then divided it by 3 to make sure that even at the weakest, it would still be pretty strong, and I was right; the calculation yielded over 600kgf, stronger than the bite force of Spotted Hyenas, and that was after the number was divided by 3, meaning a much weaker jaw adductor and bite force, which still yielded a bite force superior to that of modern Hyenas. In contrast, Sakamoto estimated the bite force of Baryonyx walkeri with a ~91.5 cm skull at ~3,870 newtons (~394kg), and its jaw adductor was even less volumous, not to mention it had a very slender neck overall in comparison to Carnotaurus sastrei. With Saltwater Crocodiles having bite forces superior to 1,500kg, I wouldn't be surprised to see this abelisaurid biting about as hard. Could you convert 600kgf into kg? I am honestly finding it hard to make comparisons because you are providing bite force estimates for different animals using different measuring units. Also, in the last phrase in that post were you referring to Baryonyx walkeri or saltwater crocodiles?
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Post by Theropod on May 5, 2014 13:50:35 GMT
What? 600kgf = 600kg, it's a similar unit, the only difference is that kg is used for mass, while kgf is used for force, but they're the same thing. In fact, an object weighing 600kg will exert 600kgf on an object that supports it completely. Newtons aren't very hard to convert either, since 10,000 newtons will be roughly 1,000kgf, since 1kgf = 9.8 newtons, you can round them up.
I was referring to Saltwater Crocodiles, I used them as comparison based on studies showing their bites to be over 1,500kgf, so taking that into consideration, ~600kgf might be too low even for Carnotaurus sastrei.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on May 5, 2014 15:54:10 GMT
I still don't believe in a 600kgf bite force estimate for Carnotaurus sastrei, as there has been no analysis of its bite force (at least that I'm aware of). The way you calculated the estimate was pretty unreliable because there is no evidence that a Tyrannosaurus rex would have a bite force 3 times that of Carnotaurus sastrei if they are scaled to size parity. I highly doubt Carnotaurus would of had a bite force of over 1.5 tons, even slightly less than 1 ton seems to be pushing it.
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Post by Theropod on May 5, 2014 16:18:06 GMT
Who's saying it's a real estimate? I think you are missing the point; I said it's an educated guess, which is not something unallowed in science. "Baseless speculation" is fine to an extent, when it is quite logical. Why would Carnotaurus sastrei pack a bite force not much stronger than a Hyena's? And regarding my calculation, you're missing the point, again. I'll repeat; since we do not have sufficient data, I scaled Tyrannosaurus rex's biteforce down by the square of the scaling factor (which is for strength, unlike mass, which scales by the cube of the scaling factor), and divided it by 3. The point of weakening it by 3 times is that its biteforce would be obviously superior to the result yielded by dividing it, and even so, th result was quite impressive in absolute terms. I have posted a reference from "Of arcs and vaults: the biomechanics of bone-cracking in spotted hyenas (Crocuta crocuta)" p. 254 J. B. Tanner et. al."., showing that Spotted Hyenas, even though having a weaker biteforce than that of Carnotaurus sastrei, could crack open large bones. Why would 1,000kg be pushing it, may I ask? We don't need to be conservative regarding Carnotaurus sastrei's bite force, I have shown calculations that weaken it by a good amount, and it was still impressive in absolute terms. Why would it pack a weaker bite than a Saltwater Crocodile? If we look at the areas responsible for biting force, we can tell that saying such a large abelisaurid would not bite about as hard doesn't make much sense. This is the skeleton of a ~2 metre long Nile Crocodile: Crocodiles have powerful neck muscles, as you can tell from the robusticity of their necks in comparison to the skeleton. This image suggests a fairly volumous jaw adductor, seeing as lower jaw isn't as wide as the upper jaw, and the jaw adductor covers the angular/surangular area, the neck was also fairly muscular. Saltwater Crocodiles can actually bite with more than 1,500kgf, as I have previously stated, and I cannot understand the concept that it's actually pushing it to assume a bite force superior to 1,000kgf. My point is that the bite force of this animal is brutally underrated here, considering all those factors.
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Post by Theropod on May 5, 2014 16:24:18 GMT
Also, as I previously stated, Sakamoto (2010) estimated Baryonyx walkeri's bite force at nearly 400kgf, even though it had a much more slenderly built neck and skull.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on May 6, 2014 7:09:03 GMT
Who's saying it's a real estimate? I think you are missing the point; I said it's an educated guess, which is not something unallowed in science. "Baseless speculation" is fine to an extent, when it is quite logical. Why would Carnotaurus sastrei pack a bite force not much stronger than a Hyena's? And regarding my calculation, you're missing the point, again. I'll repeat; since we do not have sufficient data, I scaled Tyrannosaurus rex's biteforce down by the square of the scaling factor (which is for strength, unlike mass, which scales by the cube of the scaling factor), and divided it by 3. The point of weakening it by 3 times is that its biteforce would be obviously superior to the result yielded by dividing it, and even so, th result was quite impressive in absolute terms. I have posted a reference from "Of arcs and vaults: the biomechanics of bone-cracking in spotted hyenas (Crocuta crocuta)" p. 254 J. B. Tanner et. al."., showing that Spotted Hyenas, even though having a weaker biteforce than that of Carnotaurus sastrei, could crack open large bones. Why would 1,000kg be pushing it, may I ask? We don't need to be conservative regarding Carnotaurus sastrei's bite force, I have shown calculations that weaken it by a good amount, and it was still impressive in absolute terms. Why would it pack a weaker bite than a Saltwater Crocodile? If we look at the areas responsible for biting force, we can tell that saying such a large abelisaurid would not bite about as hard doesn't make much sense. This is the skeleton of a ~2 metre long Nile Crocodile: Crocodiles have powerful neck muscles, as you can tell from the robusticity of their necks in comparison to the skeleton. This image suggests a fairly volumous jaw adductor, seeing as lower jaw isn't as wide as the upper jaw, and the jaw adductor covers the angular/surangular area, the neck was also fairly muscular. Saltwater Crocodiles can actually bite with more than 1,500kgf, as I have previously stated, and I cannot understand the concept that it's actually pushing it to assume a bite force superior to 1,000kgf. My point is that the bite force of this animal is brutally underrated here, considering all those factors. Why should Carnotaurus' bite force be as strong as 1500kgf? Saltwater crocodiles have far more robust skulls than Abelisaurids proportionally, there is hardly any comparison between their anatomy. I honestly do not see how Carnotaurus' bite force should be drastically more powerful than theropods of comparable size (such as Allosaurus fragilis and the immature Baryonyx walkeri specimen). Carnotaurus has a slender lower jaw and a not particularly robust upper jaw. I personally don't have a bite force estimate for Carnotaurus, but 1 ton seems too much.
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Post by Theropod on May 6, 2014 16:56:21 GMT
Why should Carnotaurus' bite force be as strong as 1500kgf? Saltwater crocodiles have far more robust skulls than Abelisaurids proportionally, there is hardly any comparison between their anatomy. And why should it be weaker, really? This "skull robusticity" thing is not any overwhelming. Saying Saltwater Crocodiles have far more robust skulls than abelisaurids proportionately is quite ridiculous, seeing as they actually do not, they don't have incredibly robust skulls, they're just quite wide in comparison to many animals. They do not have comparable anatomy, but how much of their anatomy is actually relevant to bite force? If you only compare the relevant parts, which are the jaw adductors and certain neck muscles, you'll see that there is no reason why this abelisaurid should have a significantly weaker bite, and even more considering it is a lot larger (unless you consider the immense, rare specimens). I honestly do not see how Carnotaurus' bite force should be drastically more powerful than theropods of comparable size (such as Allosaurus fragilis and the immature Baryonyx walkeri specimen). Carnotaurus has a slender lower jaw and a not particularly robust upper jaw. I personally don't have a bite force estimate for Carnotaurus, but 1 ton seems too much. Who's implying it should be a lot more powerful than Allosaurus fragilis? It's a fact that an abelisaurid with a less slenderly-built neck is going to bite harder than an immature Baryonyx walkeri however. I also see you are kind of ignoring the large area for the placing of a jaw adductor on the skull of Carnotaurus sastrei, which for some reason has to have its bite force more underestimate than that of baryonychines. And what about the neck muscles responsible for also moving the lower mandible? There is absolutely no good reason to underrate this animal's biteforce. Why are you safe to assume, with no calculations, how much should be pushing it? After all, even though I weakened its biteforce by a lot, it still yielded me a fairly high result. Of course this abelisaurid is going to bite harder than 600kgf, I cannot see it having a biteforce about 3 times weaker than that of a similarly-sized tyrannosaurine. I suggest not being conservative with low estimates, unless you provide calculations and/or sources explaining why its bite force should be unobviously low in comparison to other theropods, all of those conspiracies related to Carnotaurus sastrei having a weak bite force are just opinion, not fact, just like that stiff-limbed Wolf stereotype.
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