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Post by spinosaurus1 on Apr 25, 2014 16:40:46 GMT
very true. although it is a guesstimate, I think 12-13 ton spinosaurus would nearly be plausible. think about it this way. we only had like three individuals of spinosaurus aegyptiacus. IPHG 1912 destroyed during ww2, an undiscribed juvenile, and of course, MSMN V4047, which is coming conclusive that it was already around 10-11 tons. those three individual specimens out of the possible thousands that once roamed the earth. if were using sue, who is likely around the maximum size of it's species, then I would consider using something around 12 or 13 ton figure for a spinosaurus
all in all, I can't wait for hartmans GDI
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Apr 25, 2014 16:51:26 GMT
Wow, I was just gonna post something about the ramming behaviour thing, and that's the first thing you talk about.  I really don't think the spinosaurine would ram, in order to cause any considerable effects it would have to ram with a good amount of force, which could damage its skull. Since we don't know the actual siz of this theropod, we can't be really sure, but there's a thing about our largest Tyrannosaurus rex specimen, FMNH PR2081: 0.913kg/l (8400kg/9200l) That seems a little high for my taste. By comparison, Hutchinson et al. arrived at a total density of 0.791 for the same specimen, tough of course with a different model. I think that’s mainly because he assumed the torso and neck to have a specific gravity of 0.9. By comparison, the Bates et al. model of Allosaurus has the thorax at a density of 0.715 when an abdominal airsack is assumed (and T. rex did have abdominal airsacks, judging by the pneumatisation of its sacrum and posterior dorsal vertebrae), and even when the tigh is included it is still 0.778. If anything, T. rex would have been more pneumatic, considering it is more pneumatised than Allosaurus. So I think a net density of 0.8 is saver to assume for T. rex. It might be safe to say FMNH PR2081 was about a ton smaller, Hartman used a quite high density for his GDI on the specimen. With a 12-metre tyrannosaurine weighing about 7 tons, a 15-16(?) metre spinosaurine might as well not weigh that much, given spinosaurids are generally not as robustly built as tyrannosaurids. I think the size advantage concept has been extremely misunderstood here. we must remember that although narrow, spinosaurus jaws were far from weak. as a matter fact, it's almost 60% high consitration of bone the tyrannoraurus( even though it doesn't contribute to bite force, it does show the spinosaurus did have a strong skull) but I agree that the head is likely not the ramming contender. but I never suggested that. with such mass advantage, I believe spinosaurus could of relied on body collisions in order to knock down it's opponent. and I doubt a 15-16 meter long spinosaurus would weigh less then a 12 meter tyrannosaur, even is spinosaurus do generally be more narrow chested. 
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Post by Theropod on Apr 25, 2014 18:36:04 GMT
Thing is, I did not suggest it would be lighter than the 12-metre theropod, but it could of have been lighter than w actually think. I now actually slightly favour Tyrannosaurus rex, seeing as it had a gape that was wide enough to bite something as robust as the spinosaurid's whole torso. I don't think body collisions would give it a massive advantage, although they do mean something. And looking at Hartman's comparison, they actually seem quite evenly matched, opposite to the former opinions on this.
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Apr 25, 2014 18:50:20 GMT
would you mind posting how a tyrannosaurus 1 meter gape is going to go around spinosaurus torso? I remember vobby getting on this, but I can't for the life of me find it. I also have to remind you that I remember blaze had pointed out that 10 tons is still a very possible weight estimate for MSMN v4047. I doubt tyrannosaurs barely getting it's jaws around spinosaurus torso be drastic though. how is the tyrannosaurus going to out flank spinosaurus anyway?
I always consider the larger animal with more weight to be able to gain the upper hand on a smaller opponent. even if it isn't major( at this proportion to be specific. if the animals were talking about were 8 pounds against 10 pounds I would agree, but 8 tons against likely 10 tons + is something to consider.)
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Post by ornitholestes on Apr 25, 2014 18:57:59 GMT
Note however that Spinosaurus, albeit more slender, would have had a far higher density than T. rex.
Consider that the whole cervical and dorsal series as well as the sacrum are pneumatised in T. rex, while only the cervicals are pneumatised in Spinosaurus. In other words, more or less the whole precaudal collumn is hollow in Tyrannosaurus, while only the neck is in Spinosaurus, so the latter’s airsack system (unsurprisingly) was far less extensive.
And that makes sense, considering Spinosaurus was semi-aquatic and a megalosauroid. A density of well over 0.9 is likely in its case. Tyrannosaurs are particularly pneumatic theropods (although some derived allosauroids can also be highly pneumatic).
The same you see reflected in their skulls, funny enough. T. rex’ snout has an air-space proportion of over 60%, while that of Spinosaurus is about 19%.
Also I highly doubt T. rex could realistically bite something with the dimensions of Spinosaurus’ torso. Assume a gape angle of 60° (which is typical for exant carnivorans*) and a functional jaw lenght of 1.4m (which corresponds to sue), the gape distance at the front of the jaws would also be 1.4m. But, the further back (i.e. the more tissue it tries to fit in the jaws) we come, the smaller the gape gets.
I’m well aware of the diagram by Andrea Cau you are referring to. But, first of all, that rib was not complete and would likely have extended more vertically than the one of barrell-chested T. rex. Then, that rib belonged to the holotype. Whether you are of the opinion that MSNM V 4047 was the same taxon or not, it was likely a good deal bigger. And finally, the shape of Spinosaurus flanks would have made it very difficult to bite them, and if only due to its tall neural spines. That is, unless an animal large enough to do that somehow got below its torso…
*I’ve never seen a crocodile open its jaws that far tough.
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Apr 25, 2014 19:06:56 GMT
nice to see that your on this site too theropod. about tyrannosaurus jaws, would you mind posting the formula on measuring gape. I though tyrannosaurus gape was only around 1 meter
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Post by ornitholestes on Apr 25, 2014 19:14:40 GMT
What I think is relevant is that Spinosaurus’ forelimbs are no joke at all, no matter how many people will claim "but their jaws are their main weapons!!!".
Baryonyx has a thumb claw 31cm long over the outer curve, and thus either 23 or 24cm long in straight line. MSNM V 4047 would have been almost 80% bigger dimensionally. And in eagles, the keratinous sheath adds roughly 20% in straight-line lenght, and considerably more (over 60%) to the curved lenght.
The humerus of that Baryonyx is 46.3cm long, which gives us values for MSNM comparable to, if slightly higher than, a giant partial humerus that was actually recovered.
So in other words, we are talking about very long, very, very powerful (spinosaurian forelimbs are the most robust of all theropods!) arms, armed with meathooks of a considerable size. Being caught in those talons would not be funny, even for another large theropod.
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Post by ornitholestes on Apr 25, 2014 19:16:30 GMT
nice to see that your on this site too theropod. about tyrannosaurus jaws, would you mind posting the formula on measuring gape. I though tyrannosaurus gape was only around 1 meter I’ve approximated it using trigonometrics. here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_sinesIt depends on what angle you assume, and on the specimens. Eg. if you give T. rex crocodile-like 40° of gape angle, you get less than 1m for FMNH PR 2081. Smaller specimens will also have smaller gapes in absolute terms of course. |
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Post by Theropod on Apr 25, 2014 21:28:44 GMT
would you mind posting how a tyrannosaurus 1 meter gape is going to go around spinosaurus torso? I remember vobby getting on this, but I can't for the life of me find it. I also have to remind you that I remember blaze had pointed out that 10 tons is still a very possible weight estimate for MSMN v4047. I doubt tyrannosaurs barely getting it's jaws around spinosaurus torso be drastic though. how is the tyrannosaurus going to out flank spinosaurus anyway? I always consider the larger animal with more weight to be able to gain the upper hand on a smaller opponent. even if it isn't major( at this proportion to be specific. if the animals were talking about were 8 pounds against 10 pounds I would agree, but 8 tons against likely 10 tons + is something to consider.) I don't really think it would even try biting the torso, hence why I said it could bite something with the same proportions and dimensions. And I do believe the tyrannosaurid could outflank it in a way. And an example of size not being the deciding factor always would be Leopard vs Gorilla. I will try to find Vobby's explanation. |
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Apr 25, 2014 21:43:31 GMT
with the proportions we're talking about, a tyrannosaurus would consider itself lucky if it manages to out flank a spinosaurus. once two massive animals meet at a certain point, it's literally next to impossible to avoid physical contact. and any attempt by a tyrannosaurus outflanking a spinosaurus could result in exposing its own flank and get gutted by the claw, or body collision, in which the smaller animal would get the worst of it. in which case, I would actually see spinosaurus taking the advantage of that situation with it's height and weight advantage.
and please tell me the analogy you made does not apply to this situation.
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Post by Theropod on Apr 25, 2014 21:57:40 GMT
I agree for the most part, and obviously apes and pantherines aren't comparable to theropodss, that's just an example of how size isn't everything when your opponent is well-armed.
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Post by Theropod on Jun 28, 2014 18:08:21 GMT
 FMNH PR2081 compared to IPHG 1912 (foreground) and MSMN V4047 (background). IPHG 1912 seems like a good match, I'd back the tyrannosaurid over it most of the time. Based on Hartman's models, IPHG 1912 would have an arm ~12.24 times stronger than the man in the comparison, MSMN V4047 would be ~18.74, and FMNH PR2081 would be ~3, comparing the disparity between their arms and other more relevant muscles, FMNH PR2081 shouldn't be far behind in terms of strength, after all. This fight wouldn't be too far from 50/50, as there isn't a huge difference in overall strength as previously estimated based merely on mass, rather than more precise calculations. I think all of those predictions (80/20, 70/30 and the like) are immense exaggerations. We have insufficient data on Spinosaurus aegyptiacus when it comes to its mass, its mass/strength ratio could as well be higher than usual given its very likely muscular ridge, making it not much stronger than its adversary. ~12 tons would be the result if we were to scale IPHG 1912 from FMNH PR2081 (assuming similar density and volume at length parity), this may sound like a sufficient size advantage, but the dorsal structure was very likely to be a muscular ridge rather than a lighter structure like a sail, this would likely add ~2-3 tons (I'm not sure, I can try and calculate it properly later, for now it's a guess), and it must be considered that the more robust tyrannosaurid likely had a higher percentage of skeletal muscle that it can use in its favour here, so even if the spinosaurid has more muscle overall, Tyrannosaurus rex was fairly comparable to its foe, and it's important to note that it would be a lot more fair to make the fight as close to equal sizes as possible. I now actually do back the tyrannosaurid. |
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Jun 30, 2014 20:02:59 GMT
2 to 3 tons my ass. ( joke) the neural spines of spinosaurus were only centimeters thick. Although I am an advocate of spinosaurus would support a muscular ridge, it would be at concentration of the base of the vertebrae and not the distribution of the entire structure. It was more likely only 1 ton or even half of that
Tyrannosaurus bulk is more into contribution of enlarged airsacs compared to other theropods. A trademarked charactoristic in coelursaurs. In comparison, spinosaurus or magalosaurids in general, were overall denser bodied. Their skeletal structure had larger proportion of bones compared to most theropods. Spinosaurus was still the overall larger creature and it is not accustomed to the sail for such result
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Post by Theropod on Jun 30, 2014 20:09:45 GMT
I myself said it was a guess, and even thought it was quite high, but it's still quite remarkable. This does show that a lot of the guessed strength for it wasn't actually that high; the comparison I've shown does show that Tyrannosaurus rex has a good chance, and the spinosaurid winning 85% of the time was a massive exageration. |
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Jun 30, 2014 20:16:01 GMT
Who claimed that? My honest opinion is I were to round it off, would be around 55 percent in favor of spinosaurus. Of course, people would disagree but this is my assessment
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