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Post by Theropod on Jul 2, 2014 19:40:18 GMT
This is in relation to the animal's size; spinosaurids overall are pretty large, usually smaller animals take the cake in proportional terms due to the square cube law.
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Jul 2, 2014 19:49:07 GMT
Yes, but only due to their size like you said. That said, if we were to shrink spinosaurus down to size, its arm strength would of been be overall much stronger by comparison to its biuld, but growing a smaller animal would actually result in a weaker animal by comparison bue to its musculature being accustomed to a much smaller animal. In terms of overall strengrh, spinosaurids take the cake
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Post by Theropod on Jul 2, 2014 19:59:18 GMT
Hummingbirds can accelerate their wings in an incredible manner, so since the OP does say it's in proportional terms, Hummingbirds actually take the cake. If this wasn't in proportional terms, I'd be able to agree.
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Jul 2, 2014 20:02:03 GMT
Damn, never caught that, I was more in reference to the thread title. Anyway, your right, humming birds take the cake easily in that regard. If we were to specify a species, I'll say the bee humming bird has the strongest arms in relation to size out of all theropoda
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Post by Theropod on Jul 2, 2014 20:48:25 GMT
I agree, since it's so small and can move its wings at amazing speeds. In regards to the thread title, I agree that spinosaurids do win in that aspect, their arms are powerfully built; just like I estimated from Hartman's comparison (it's his birtday today btw), IPHG 1912 would have an arm ~12.2 stronger than a man, and MSMN V4047 would have an arm ~18.7 times stronger than a man.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Jul 3, 2014 22:18:10 GMT
I apologise for not mentioning this in the OP, but I meant which had the strongest arms proportionally out of extinct theropods.
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Jul 3, 2014 22:35:02 GMT
In which case, that title would still go to early birds and dromaesaurs.
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Post by ornitholestes on Jul 5, 2014 12:42:57 GMT
The size factor is difficult to account for properly, because to do so would require to find specimens of all these animals that are the same size, to correct for allometry. However, I think there is reason to believe spinosaurs have the strongest arms among all theropods. It has been noted in several publications (Charig & milner 1997, Senter & Robins 2005) how stocky and well-muscled their arms were. The most well-ilustrated spinosaur forelimb is that of Baryonyx walkeri, which is useful in that it belongs to a moderately large but not gigantic theropod, and is still extremely robust, with particularly broad muscle attachment. Other spinosaurs at least seem to follow the same trend.→Note that larger theropods tend to get even more stocky, but also shorter forelimbs. For example, Acrocanthosaurus has a stockier humerus than Allosaurus, but it is also much shorter relative to body size (and actually comparable in absolute terms). The absolute size of the forelimb as well as its robusticity play a role here, and we can be fairly confident that the largest spinosaurids both had huge forelimbs in absolute terms, very large forelimbs in relative terms, and very robust brachial osteology.
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Jul 5, 2014 15:04:53 GMT
unfortunately ornitholestes, the thread said which theropod has the strongest arms in proportion to body size. in which case, spinosaurus would be outclassed by certain smaller theropods with powerfully built forelimbs such as dromaeosaurs. in absolute terms however, I completely agree. spinosaurids overall, have the most powerful forearms out of all theropoda
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Post by Theropod on Jul 5, 2014 15:21:42 GMT
Or at least of known theropod taxa... Seriously though, the answer is quite simple. In absolute terms, your average spinosaurid will likely beat other average theropods, although I'll have to verify that later. In proportional terms for extinct taxa, smaller dromaeosaurid species will easily come out on top.
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Post by ornitholestes on Jul 5, 2014 17:55:53 GMT
unfortunately ornitholestes, the thread said which theropod has the strongest arms in proportion to body size. in which case, spinosaurus would be outclassed by certain smaller theropods with powerfully built forelimbs such as dromaeosaurs. in absolute terms however, I completely agree. spinosaurids overall, have the most powerful forearms out of all theropoda I realise that. It’s just that I find those pound-for-pount-comparisons rather pointless, for obvious reasons. Both absolute and (properly) size-corrected comparisons seem much more relevant for biological sublects, and in both regards I think spinosaurs would take the cake here. As already pointed out, the hummingbird very likely wins in the pund-for-pound category. Did I ever mention that I once actually saw a programme on tv that actually created some sort of olympic games among animals and also ignored proper scaling (and scaled all animals to the same size)? Obviously, they made some insect the best weightlifter and pronounced how increadibly weak the elephant was. Just hilarious!
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Post by spinosaurus1 on Jul 5, 2014 18:05:54 GMT
true. as matter fact, those are points appointed by me earlier in the thread. smaller animals are only stronger due to the fact of their size and nothing else. a scales up insect to a multi ton beast and wouldn't even be able to move due to its weak musculature being accustomed to a smaller animal compared to an elephant who's musculature is adapted to support its multi ton weight.
and I really wouldn't pay most attention to programs such as that. I prefer proper documentaries then those who focus more on a dramatic sounding narrator, or claims with no backup or reasoning. unfortunately, such documentaries are becoming rarer
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Post by ornitholestes on Jul 5, 2014 18:12:44 GMT
I didn’t, I was a small child back then and didn’t even realise how inaccurate their premises were until much later, when I read the scaling-thread on carnivora.
That smaller animals will always win proportionally in terms of muscular strenght is obvious (though merely a result of bad maths). What is much more interesting are the size-corrected comparisons because they incorporate the actual functional morphology, and maybe absolute comparisons simply because of their possibly ecological significance.
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Post by Theropod on Jul 5, 2014 18:48:58 GMT
The OP just said we're referring to extinct theropod taxa though, so smaller dromaeosaurids easily take the cake in proportional terms, but in absolute terms there's no doubt spinosaurids take the cake. Sorry Tyrannosauridae And what you're referring to is called allometry, not just the musculature but the skeletal system are involved. I have made a thread that covers this topic a while ago, in fact.
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Post by xxXAcroRexXxx on May 18, 2015 22:07:21 GMT
Spinosaurus or Therizinosaurus probably had the strongest arms.
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