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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Aug 27, 2015 15:21:32 GMT
Just wondered what your thoughts are on the topic.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Aug 27, 2015 15:42:10 GMT
A quick definition: socialism (there are different forms of it) is a society in which all means of production and distribution of goods are controlled by the government. I personally prefer the idea of socialism to communism and capatalism. Communism is too extreme and a dictatorship is always formed when a country becomes communist, which can potentially make it unbearable to live in as the government has practically full control over your life. Capitalism on the other hand creates an unfair society clearly divided into different classes of people (greedy independent corporations have a lot to do with this). Socialism exercises some the ideas of Communism (full governmental control over industries thus creating a more equal society where work and salaries for people will be more fair) but isn't too extreme.
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Post by Theropod on Aug 28, 2015 14:57:54 GMT
Capitalism is in theory the most fair one, I prefer it over socialism and definitely communism. No system is perfect.
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Post by thesporerex on Sept 2, 2015 7:32:07 GMT
A quick definition: socialism (there are different forms of it) is a society in which all means of production and distribution of goods are controlled by the government. I personally prefer the idea of socialism to communism and capatalism. Communism is too extreme and a dictatorship is always formed when a country becomes communist, which can potentially make it unbearable to live in as the government has practically full control over your life. Capitalism on the other hand creates an unfair society clearly divided into different classes of people (greedy independent corporations have a lot to do with this). Socialism exercises some the ideas of Communism (full governmental control over industries thus creating a more equal society where work and salaries for people will be more fair) but isn't too extreme. That would be an amazing definition if it wasn't completely false! Socialism and Communism both support the idea that the means of production, distrubution and exchange of goods and services should be controlled by the workers and or the people. It has nothing to do with government controlling the means of production because that completely relates to "Authoritarian Socialism" which honestly isn't even socialism in the first place, it is state capitalism (Capitalism controlled by the state). There has never ever been a true Socialist nations to ever exist apart from the few anarchist and or socialist nations and districts throughout history. All self proclaimed "Communist nations" like the USSR, China, Vietnam, Cuba etc have all been state capitalist because they employ the same economic policies of wage labour, centralized management, capital accumiliation, generating investment climates, exploitation of the workforce, generating classes of hierarchy etc like coperate, western capitalism. Instead of the economic elite controlling said enterprises, it is the political elite. Which are basically the same thing aside from how they present themselves.
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Post by thesporerex on Sept 2, 2015 7:33:45 GMT
Capitalism is in theory the most fair one, I prefer it over socialism and definitely communism. No system is perfect. I don't see how wage slavery and dictatorial control over the workforce is the most "fair"...
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Sept 2, 2015 8:23:55 GMT
A quick definition: socialism (there are different forms of it) is a society in which all means of production and distribution of goods are controlled by the government. I personally prefer the idea of socialism to communism and capatalism. Communism is too extreme and a dictatorship is always formed when a country becomes communist, which can potentially make it unbearable to live in as the government has practically full control over your life. Capitalism on the other hand creates an unfair society clearly divided into different classes of people (greedy independent corporations have a lot to do with this). Socialism exercises some the ideas of Communism (full governmental control over industries thus creating a more equal society where work and salaries for people will be more fair) but isn't too extreme. That would be an amazing definition if it wasn't completely false! Socialism and Communism both support the idea that the means of production, distrubution and exchange of goods and services should be controlled by the workers and or the people. It has nothing to do with government controlling the means of production because that completely relates to "Authoritarian Socialism" which honestly isn't even socialism in the first place, it is state capitalism (Capitalism controlled by the state). There has never ever been a true Socialist nations to ever exist apart from the few anarchist and or socialist nations and districts throughout history. All self proclaimed "Communist nations" like the USSR, China, Vietnam, Cuba etc have all been state capitalist because they employ the same economic policies of wage labour, centralized management, capital accumiliation, generating investment climates, exploitation of the workforce, generating classes of hierarchy etc like coperate, western capitalism. Instead of the economic elite controlling said enterprises, it is the political elite. Which are basically the same thing aside from how they present themselves. Socialism is based around the idea of there being co-operative control of the economy. The people are able to manage the economy through the state, and 'state' is almost synonymous with 'government', therefore my definition wasn't completely incorrect, despite being somewhat misleading.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Sept 2, 2015 8:29:51 GMT
Communism is in principle the most fair, but is too extreme to ever work properly. As Taimur said, whenever Communism has been exercised, it has always become State Capitalism but in a slightly different, more radical form to normal.
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Post by thesporerex on Sept 2, 2015 13:16:52 GMT
That would be an amazing definition if it wasn't completely false! Socialism and Communism both support the idea that the means of production, distrubution and exchange of goods and services should be controlled by the workers and or the people. It has nothing to do with government controlling the means of production because that completely relates to "Authoritarian Socialism" which honestly isn't even socialism in the first place, it is state capitalism (Capitalism controlled by the state). There has never ever been a true Socialist nations to ever exist apart from the few anarchist and or socialist nations and districts throughout history. All self proclaimed "Communist nations" like the USSR, China, Vietnam, Cuba etc have all been state capitalist because they employ the same economic policies of wage labour, centralized management, capital accumiliation, generating investment climates, exploitation of the workforce, generating classes of hierarchy etc like coperate, western capitalism. Instead of the economic elite controlling said enterprises, it is the political elite. Which are basically the same thing aside from how they present themselves. Socialism is based around the idea of there being co-operative control of the economy. The people are able to manage the economy through the state, and 'state' is almost synonymous with 'government', therefore my definition wasn't completely incorrect, despite being somewhat misleading. That is a straw man as there are many forms of Socialism that want to abolish any forms of government. The two biggest examples are Libertarian Socialism(Anarchism) and traditional Marxism. Not only that, personally I do not think you can co-operatively control the economy throught the state as the state will always pursue its own interests and not the workers. Examples of this being every single society that has ever had a government ever.
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Post by thesporerex on Sept 2, 2015 13:22:04 GMT
Communism is in principle the most fair, but is too extreme to ever work properly. As Taimur said, whenever Communism has been exercised, it has always become State Capitalism but in a slightly different, more radical form to normal. This is incorrect. Because Communism actually could be achieved if people strive for it. Also I never said "whenever communism has been exercised" state capitalism has been put into effect, because it was never put into effect in the first place. Leninism, Stalinism and Maoism is mostly what has been put into effect which is basically another murderous form of capitalism. State capitalism is also no more radical than western capitalism, its the same shit with different owners.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Sept 2, 2015 21:51:26 GMT
Socialism is based around the idea of there being co-operative control of the economy. The people are able to manage the economy through the state, and 'state' is almost synonymous with 'government', therefore my definition wasn't completely incorrect, despite being somewhat misleading. That is a straw man as there are many forms of Socialism that want to abolish any forms of government. The two biggest examples are Libertarian Socialism(Anarchism) and traditional Marxism. Not only that, personally I do not think you can co-operatively control the economy throught the state as the state will always pursue its own interests and not the workers. Examples of this being every single society that has ever had a government ever. Good to know. I'm not very well educated on the subject of politics as it doesn't really interest me so this is all decent info to learn.
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Post by Theropod on Sept 5, 2015 12:34:46 GMT
Capitalism is in theory the most fair one, I prefer it over socialism and definitely communism. No system is perfect. I don't see how wage slavery and dictatorial control over the workforce is the most "fair"... Because in theory you contribute to things so people contribute in an equivalent way to you. Not doing anything and getting it either way does not seem fair to me. I started thinking this way when I got a real job, I also have a different perspective.
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Post by thesporerex on Sept 6, 2015 3:53:56 GMT
I don't see how wage slavery and dictatorial control over the workforce is the most "fair"... Because in theory you contribute to things so people contribute in an equivalent way to you. Not doing anything and getting it either way does not seem fair to me. I started thinking this way when I got a real job, I also have a different perspective. Doesn't really have any relevancy towards capitalism as all capitalism means is private individual owners have control over the means of production and a few other major things. ^What capitalism actually is
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Post by Theropod on Sept 6, 2015 12:10:32 GMT
Capitalism the way it is right here and right now is not bugging me, if people work they won't be poor. If they do not work they cannot expect anything in return.
Get a job where you work hard and perhaps you might see things differently, that's all I have to say here. Not even gonna read any further replies, those subjects do not matter to me anymore.
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Post by thesporerex on Sept 7, 2015 16:16:21 GMT
Capitalism the way it is right here and right now is not bugging me, if people work they won't be poor. If they do not work they cannot expect anything in return. Get a job where you work hard and perhaps you might see things differently, that's all I have to say here. Not even gonna read any further replies, those subjects do not matter to me anymore. Completely disgusting and simplified view point as most people who are poor are born into it and don't have much opportunities because they live in a poor area. Most homeless people in the west are homeless because they were evicted because of rising house and rent costs (because exploitation for housing has become a big way to produce money for the rich). And to say that just 'working hard' will not make you poor is demonising to the poor and an insult to reality. Also as a person who just had work experience I can say that I do not see it any differently.
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Post by themechabaryonyx789 on Sept 8, 2015 22:03:19 GMT
Capitalism the way it is right here and right now is not bugging me, if people work they won't be poor. If they do not work they cannot expect anything in return. Get a job where you work hard and perhaps you might see things differently, that's all I have to say here. Not even gonna read any further replies, those subjects do not matter to me anymore. People who are poor will have far less opportunities for fair-paying work as society opresses them so much, and also they will lack most qualifications which are required for decent jobs. So I personally don't think it's fair to say that poor people don't work hard enough just because of their financial situation. There are people in the world who work so hard in quite often terrible and highly dangerous conditions and barely recieve half of an average person's weekly wage for a month's salary (this is more often in corrupt countries but still happens in 1st world countries as poor people are constantly taken advantage of).
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